Come on Folks… Give the Scouts a Pass
For some time there has been bad blood between my local Philadelphia government and the Boy Scouts of America. It has come to a head this year when the city solicitor issued an ultimatum to the local Boy Scouts’, Cradle of Liberty Council.
Citing a local 1982 "fair practices" law, the city solicitor has given the Scouts until Dec. 3 to renounce its policy of excluding homosexuals or forfeit the grand, Beaux-Arts building it has rented from the city for $1 a year since 1928.
"While we respect the right of the Boy Scouts to prohibit participation in its activities by homosexuals," the solicitor, Romulo Diaz, said last week in an interview, "we will not subsidize that discrimination by passing on the costs to the people of Philadelphia."
As of 5:00pm today there was no response from the council. Philadelphia has a new mayor taking office in January and the council leadership hope to work out a deal when Michael Nutter is sworn in. This strikes me as very unlikely because, as a city council member, Nutter was in the majority in the 16 to 1 vote for the resolution that led to this impasse. (The picture on the right is the beautiful Beaux-Arts Building, home to the Cradle of Liberty Council.)
As a gay former scout I have to say that I wish the city had left this issue alone. I don’t like discrimination of any kind, but I also know what a great experience Boy Scouts was for me as a kid. I had a horrible relationship with my stepfather growing up and I hated being around him. In scouts I was exposed to men I could look up to and admire. Not allowing gays to act as Scout leaders does bother me, but not enough to do something that makes the Scouts less accessible to boys around the country.
Lets focus on gay marriage, gay adoption, the prosecution of hate crimes of every kind, and then, and only then, can we look at the scouting issue again – if we still have the energy.
As a scout in Florida in Boy Scout Troop 626, I knew I was gay, and I kept it to myself. The benefits of being a scout, for me, far out weighed the drawbacks (I’m don’t think there actually were any drawbacks) involved in staying in the closet. What thirteen year old will improve their life by coming out? Kids can be vicious at that age, but knowing two young men who are active in scouts, Corey and Thomas, I have to say that scouting has certainly not made them bigots. These are wonderful guys who are smart, capable, funny, and caring. If the scouts, under the current system, can turn out kids like that, then this is not a high priority issue for me.
There is a woman leading a troop in North Jersey who I respect immensely. She is not in the least homophobic. She is a compassionate, loving mother of one of the boys I mentioned earlier. She has been through all the rigorous training that Scout leadership entails. From our talks, and the stories she’s told, she sounds far more capable than my own scoutmaster down in Florida. (Sorry Mr. Beck, but its true.) This summer she took them to the Florida National High Adventure Sea Base and they had a wonderful (and educational) time. When I see people like Jeanne, and her son and nephew, I have a big problem with trying to force changes on the Boy Scouts of America from outside the organization. I also think change will come, in time, but right now we have bigger problems to deal with first.
There were 922,836 eleven to seventeen year old boys in scouts on December 31, 2006. I can’t think of any other organization that is working to make a difference in that many young men’s lives. Scouting knows no barriers based on economics or social strata. Sure, some troops are better funded than others, but when troops come together at summer camp or at a Jamboree they are not segrated by class. Some, no ALL, of my best memories of life in those years came from my time in Scouts. I spent several weeks at Camp Tanah Keeta and I had a great time and I learned some wonderful skills there.
I don’t have much hope for the future of the relationship between the Scouts and the City of Philadelphia, but who knows, maybe some compromise can be reached.
Brian Westley says:
“Regarding United Way cutting funding for Scouts, you might want to consider the position UW finds themselves in…”
And this is why I choose to make my donations directly to organizations of my choice, much to my employer’s chagrin as my company is a huge UW proponent.
I can’t say I disagree with your train of thought, Brian, but again, the ones who suffer from these decisions are the KIDS – the ones UW obliged itself to SERVE – including those thousands who will never join and will lose out on all the benefits Scouting offers because their parents are offended by the issue.
My philosophy in getting my son and nephews involved is: “You must be the change you want to see in the world.” Most of the time, change comes from within. We do our best to be the GOOD side of Scouting and make the good changes happen in our little corner of the world.
Regarding United Way cutting funding for Scouts, you might want to consider the position UW finds themselves in — if your local UW has a nondiscrimination policy, telling donors that their donations are not given to organizations that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or religion, and then turns around and gives money to the Boy Scouts, who DO discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation and religion, the UW could be sued for taking donations under false pretenses.
512jellybeans commented: “Oh and BTW, in reference to the Sea Scout leader molesting boys: I’ll bet Evans is NOT a homosexual.”
First, let me say that the man is presumed innocent until proven guilty but I presume what you mean is that he doesn’t engage in adult, consenual, sexual relationships with other men. Or that perhaps he was probably a married guy that no one expected was a homosexual pedophile – allegedly.
It’s these people that we need to protect the kids from as well as protecting ourselves from false accusations. I too teach my leaders and scouts about youth protection but often get the rolled eyes when I bring these issues up.
JB commented:
“Remember the rules: No one-on-one contact. Don’t do it. Don’t allow it.”
You know, it’s funny, most people don’t see the issue about driving kids home alone from their homes after “play dates” or from Scout meetings until I say – “It only takes an unfounded accusation of impropriety to ruin your life.” Fortunately, this is because most people don’t THINK like pedophiles and my response to that is: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
I am ALL about Youth Protection! http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss01.html
I actively teach my parents and leaders about personal space, latrine sharing (no adult may approach a latrine when there are youth in it and the boys have learned to wait a respectful distance away while an adult is present.) Even sharing cabin space with boys (in an open room setting, of course) is an opprotunity for learning.
Oh and BTW, in reference to the Sea Scout leader molesting boys: I’ll bet Evans is NOT a homosexual.
There’s a program that is run by BSA that’s not truly Scouting called Learning for Life. http://www.learning-for-life.org/
Now most Scouters, despise this project mainly because it IS separate, there is no reference back to BSA AND the BSA uses the enrollment numbers to boost their numbers of youth served by BSA (so it looks like more boys are in tradtional Boy Scouting than there actually is.)
So it doesn’t surprise me that you’re find conflicting numbers. As you say, there are probably 40,000 kids in the LFL program in the inner city and 40,000 kids in the traditional Scouting program in the city and suburbs.
Jeanne: Thats what frustrates me about all this stuff. It seems that the proponents of things like the eviction in Philly can compartmentalize the issue into it being a conflict between strictly the Scout leadership and City government. The kids get lost in the shuffle and their needs are not taken into account.
I keep seeing estimates of 40,000 to 80,000 Scouts in the CoL. (I suspect its 40k in the city and 40k in the suburbs that are part of the council.) The coverage seems focused on a dozen or so full time scout administrator types and the kids helped by the programs never get mentioned. It’s not like there is another comparable organization scaled to handle the same kind of volume of kids.
BTW: The NYT has reported that The Boy Scouts erected the ornate building and since 1928 have leased the land from the city for a token sum of $1 a year. So that answers where the funds came from.
That jives with what the Free Library found in their closed stacks. They checked out the “Quaker City Scouts Yearbooks” for me for the period. They found that: The land was granted in 1928 at which time the Scouts created a building committee to drive fund raising and planning. The funds were donated by “scouts and friends of scouting”. The cornerstone was laid in February of 1930 and they moved in late in November 1930. In December of 1930 a dedication ceremony took place and for the dedication, Thomas Edison had written a letter mentioning that the building was a gift to the scouts from the “citizens of Philadelphia” which I am taking to mean it was by donations and fund raising efforts of the scouts. Thats pretty impressive for a year into the Depression.
Irony abound….”Berkeley Sea Scouts leader arrested on suspicion of molesting minors”…from today’s San Jose Mercury
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7638441?nclick_check=1
Despite the BSA’s attempts to screen out deviants that prey on boys Scouting will always attract them due to the easy access. Remember the rules: No one-on-one contact. Don’t do it. Don’t allow it.
OK, You know I don’t subscribe to the conservative viewpoint at all but I was thinking about this yesterday after I’d heard Cradle of Liberty was being evicted on 6/1/08. I knew there was a recent similar incident and I just remembered last night – the City of Berkeley, CA kicked out the Sea Scouts (a BSA affiliate) from the Berkeley Marina for not amending its policies to admit homosexual leaders. When I googled it for more info, here’s what I got:
http://usconservatives.about.com/b/2006/03/16/boy-scouts-lose-docking-privileges.htm
GREAT way to get your message across: “If they won’t stop excluding people, let’s exclude THEM.” (and yes, there was sarcasm in that last phrase…)
Since you brought up Scouts Canada here is a piece written by Hans Zeiger. He draws a connection between becoming more inclusive and SC’s decline in membership. Can you say that’s 100% of the reason? No…just like in the US there are many reasons for a decline in scouting membership but SC seems to be in a death spiral and it’s hard to say that being more inclusive didn’t contribute.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/zeiger/040812
Like Jellybean said; the boys act differently when girls are aound and the affect on scouting is not good. I’ve seen this in co-ed Venturing Crews and even when Boy Scouts are camping at the same campgroud with girls.
Hey Jeanne, Glad you took the time to respond. Your statement about the boys acting differently when the girls aren’t around reminds me of my early schooling when I was in a Christian school that kept the girls and boys separated all day. We had the same teachers but not at the same time of the day. And I noticed the difference between that and mixed public schools. Concentration levels in learning were much higher in a single sex environment and I’m sure the same applies to outdoor learning environments.
If I had more time when I wrote this post I would have focused on how CoL tried to match the city’s policies several years ago and were threatened by National with the revocation of their charter. Also, so I read, that in 2001 at the National meeting efforts were made to allow individual councils the right to set their own policies on this matter but it failed to go through.
As far as how the United Way has acted on this, it really disappoints me without surprising me at all. They are a huge organization and lack the flexibility to address issues the way some donors and staffers would probably prefer. Punishing the organization at the expense of the boys themselves is wrong. I’d love to see a middle man organization apply for funding that would be used to issue camperships to the boys directly and see if that could get around the rigidity of the UW’s national policies.
I’ve found myself thinking about this off and on all day. If the information JB reported is correct, then none of my arguments about what the best use of city funds and resources would be come in to play at all. In that instance, it is a question of should the city re-neg on a deal and I find it easy to say No.
More importantly perhaps, I realize that regardless of the arguments to be made about city finances etc, you are almost certainly right that boys who are well served by this program would be best served by the city continuing under the established arrangement. Good luck to all of you in Philly who try to see that this happens.
One other thing I forgot to mention earlier in regards to the coed SC – I’ve been on both Scouts only and coed Venturing outings.
Boys get so much more out of the experience when it’s JUST boys. They are different creatures (more relaxed and looking to have fun) when they’re not around girls. When girls are in the picture, they become a distraction and boys act differently when they’re around. It both amazes and amuses me.
And this from a female Scoutmaster who had to fight her way through the rank and file of the “He-Man-Woman-Haters Club” that was in place when she and her son joined the Troop. Fortunately, she has stamina, fortitude and strong-willed determination and has outlasted ALL of them. :)
Hey, thanks for the lovely mention in your post. You and I have held many a long discussion on Scouting and the gay exclusion thing as mutual acquaintances of ours have disagreed with my involvement and promotion of the Scouting movement.
I can only speak from my personal experience of course but I continue to marvel at the changes Scouting has wrought in so many fine young men I have had the honor and pleasure in knowing and mentoring while in Scouts. I have had at least two gay Scouts (still in the closet as far as I know) and never once has the issue of their sexuality been raised by the boys, the adults or the leaders of the Troop (s’long as I’m there, there WILL be a place for all in our Troop!) And as far as I can tell, none of my leaders is homosexual but even if there were any, they’d still have a “safe” place in which to “deliver the promise of Scouting.”
I’ve been watching CoL’s dilemma for weeks now via some Scouter lists I’m on and I have to say, it irks me immensely when “well-meaning” PC groups take the initiative to, in turn, bash the Scouts. Why can’t they see it’s the BOYS they are hurting by their actions? United Way cut my Council’s funding by 80% back in 2001 and the Council is still struggling to make ends meet – and our Council is situated in some of the richest counties in NJ! (Morris/Sussex/Somerset/Union counties.)
My dad works for the Council part-time in the Accounting department so I get the inside scoop about the financial woes. Every year, we, as parents and leaders, are asked to dig deeper in our pockets to support the annual “Friends of Scouting” campaign that helps provide funding to keep our Council’s camps running efficiently and to provide “camperships” for Scouts in need so they can attend Summer Camp. No Scout is ever turned down for a campership because it is strongly felt that money should not be a reason that a Scout is unable to attend Summer Camp. UW’s funding used to provide campership funds – now we volunteers and the other parents have to kick it up to help these kids get to camp.
Other Councils have run into similar issues like CoL’s in their municipalities and several in recent years have had to sell off their camps because they could no longer afford to maintain them. Thousands of boys over YEARS of Scouting – poof! gone with the wind and under the blade of a developer’s bulldozer. And that’s not to mention the negative environmental impact in regards to the development of these old forests…
But I digress.
Fortunately, our Council owns our buildings and our camps and improvement projects seem to be going forth – all with the generous donations of some of the wealthier families in our Council who support the initiatives.
Cradle of Liberty CAN’T back down – if they do, they will lose their National Charter and no longer be a BSA Council.
And as far as Scouts Canada – well they let – gasp!! – GIRLS! in at all levels of their program http://www.scouts.ca/inside.asp?cmPageID=83 and tried to make it PC all around and as far as what I’ve heard, the SC is failing and fast. (And yes, the BSA has allowed girls in too – into the coed Venturing program – but they don’t earn merit badges or Eagle Scout rank.)
And we’re already seeing backlash from the backward view of not allowing homosexual leaders – there are so many other organized activities out there that we compete with andall it takes is the negativity of the issue to keep some parents away.
Have you heard of Spiral Scouts (for Wiccans)? http://www.spiralscouts.org/node/10 Their main website says it’s sponsored by the Aquarian Tabernacle Church (BTW, I have a real problem with neo-pagan groups trying to sound like born-again evangelical Christians – come ON! Must you be so sneaky or worse, ashamed?) but Wikipedia out and out states they are neo-pagan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpiralScouts_International They’re an all-inclusive scouting organization. I tried to start up a Circle in my area 3 or 4 years ago but most people had very young children and Cory would not have been able to enjoy it or relate to 5 and 6 year olds.
Thanks again for your lovely words!
~ Jeanne
I try to take the long view on this kind of thing. Homosexuals are not restricted from membership or leadership positions in Scouts Canada and most European associations, including The Scout Association in the United Kingdom, Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände of Germany (German Scout Federation), and the Swedish Guide and Scout Association.
We may be running a generation behind but I suspect that the children and teenagers of today may grow in to parents who won’t put their kids into programs that they view as intolerant. We may end up with a Red State / Blue State style schism in the national organization at some point but I don’t think things like this crap in Philadelphia do anything to help it along.
Similar issues with the Boy Scouts has come up in a couple places where I’ve lived. I always find myself thinking that there are merits to the complaints, etc. But, on the other hand I know personally of so many lives the Scouts have bettered, and none, personally at least, where harm has been done. I think your “Give the Scouts a Pass” title says it succinctly!
-Will
I just got off the phone with the Art department (they handle historic buildings) and then the Social Sciences and History department of the Philadelphia Free Library. A nice guy in the SS/History department found that they have monthly and annual publications from the original Scouting council in Philadelphia that was founded in 1911. They are in their closed stacks and he is going to go look for me in the 1927-1930 Quaker Scouts Yearbooks and monthly news letters since there should be SOME mention of the opening of that building and its origins in those.
He’ll call me back later today or tomorrow morning. YAY for Librarians!
The second links back to an opinion piece on TownHall.com with no real sourcing available. I going to email the Council and see if they have anything on the history of the building.
I’ve seen this a few times in different articles. Unfortunately it doesn’t get reported often enough. In today’s Philadelphia Inquirer article there’s a one line reference to it (7th paragraph). Link below.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20071204_Scouts_ignore_gay-policy_deadline.html
You can also find it on the BSA Legal website about facts not reported by the Washington Post.
http://www.bsalegal.org/bsa-legal-blawg-200.asp
I’ve researched the topic but can’t find any websites that give more details on the original cost and agreement.
JB, where did you find that info? Its great to know and i wpould have been thrilled to include that but I couldn’t find anything in the news coverage about the origins of the building beyond the $1.00 a year lease issue.
I did know that if they did charge rent, it would be adjusted based on capital improvements that they scouts made to the building.
I did find a reference to it on Wikipedia’s Cradle of Liberty Council page but the citation it uses to suport that statement doesn’t actually contain that fact. That section is flagged as dubious in fact. DO you have another source that can support that statement since I’d love to use it in the debate if its verifiable. The Cradle of Liberty’s page itself doesn’t have ANYTHING about that.
A missing fact is that the Boy Scouts built and paid for this building themselves. The city gave them the land in 1928 and in turn required that the Boy Scouts sign over the building to the city in exchange for a $1 lease in perpetuity. The Scouts have been responsible for maintenance including $2.4 million in renovations they completed a few years ago. The only cost to the city is the income they could generate from renting a building the Scouts themselves built. The city pays nothing else. If the city wants to renege on an 80-year old deal then they should reimburse the Boy Scouts for the present market value of the building along with 80 years of maintenance costs.
Yea, I’m sure the city could sell the building for a tidy sum. It’s prime real estate and easily accessible for anyone, in particular its reachable by scouts from all over the city. Philadelphia, as we’ve discussed has horribly poverty stricken areas in the city. The scouts who are benefiting from this largess on the part of the city are the BOYS not the organization in my opinion.
I disagree, I think. I accept your arguments that this is not a high priority issue for gay rights activists and that the organization does much good in spite of having some policies I find deeply offensive. But when you’ve previously talked about the city of Philadelphia struggling to make ends meet and cutting important services like libraries, my inner accountant states quite firmly that the city can not afford to subsidize a private organization, however worthy, when it is unable to pay its bills and meet its basic obligations to provide services to its citizens.
If you set aside the gay issue altogether and approach it in terms of how the city can best manage its resources, I think it would be hard to make the case that essentially donating a huge asset like that building to any non-profit group best serves all of the city’s residents.